Loaves and Fishes

The church's community food pantry was almost empty.  Only a few cans and boxes remained.  The monthly trip to the food bank had only provided enough food for a couple of weeks and the money in the offering barely covered that bill.  Even though there was little food, people continued to come asking for help, continued to worry about money, and continued to lose their jobs.  Will everyone who needed help receive it?  Were the needs of the people too big for God?  Would God provide as the economy remains unstable?

John 6:1-15 talks about how the disciples were also faced with the hunger of large numbers of people.  Philip saw the great masses of people and believed that the problem was too big.  Andrew saw the five loaves and two fishes and believed that they didn't have enough to solve the problem.

When we look at John 6, we see that Jesus used this opportunity to demonstrate to his disciples that God would provide.  He didn't try to tell them about God's abilities.  He had everyone sit down and he blessed the food that was there.  After everyone had eaten, Jesus had the remaining bread collected so that all could see how much more was left over.  He authenticated what God had done by physically showing how much more God had given than was needed.

 

I am reminded of the folktale, "Stone Soup," where as individual ingredients are added to the cooking pot until eventually a community soup is made.  We may not start off with an entire soup, but each of us has a bit of onion or carrot that can be added to create the soup.

The director of the food pantry uses the collected money to buy 3 to 4 times as much food at the food bank.  The volunteers harvest bushels of vegetables from the community garden after planting tiny seeds.  The local supermarkets donate produce and baked goods which are approaching their expiration dates.

A month ago an anonymous donor filled the shelves of MCC Lubbock's  food pantry just as the last bags were being given out.  In another life, I would have called this result "Luck," but experience tells me that God is at work.  Someone took what s/he had and allowed God to multiply it into baskets of loaves and fishes.  Thanks be to God.

The Big Sweepstakes

My grandma believed with every fiber of her body that she would win Publisher's Clearinghouse Sweepstake.  She bought magazines of every topic and cost.  Sometimes she even ordered the same magazine twice.  Grandma filed everything she got from them and kept detailed records. She often told me that people from Publisher's Clearinghouse had called to tell her that if she only bought a few more magazines she would definitely win. And she KNEW that someday she would win the Big Sweepstakes.  They would come and with that huge check, Grandma's worries would be over.

My grandma was a woman of faith. She believed strongly that God was evident in her life. But at some point in the last few years of her life, the worries of keeping her head financially above water became too much. As she supported herself and my uncle's household, Grandma knew she didn't have enough money and hoped that the Big Sweepstakes would give her the money she needed to take care of everyone.

Like my grandma, many of us look to chance or luck in the hope that our fortune will change.  Sometimes fear, financial worries, doubt make us forget that putting our faith in the world isn't going to get us very far.  We get so bogged down in our problems we forget that God is in charge.

The money from the sweepstake was not going to solve Grandma's concerns just as worldly goods aren't going to make us happy.  So many times when a problem comes up, I react with a gut reaction.  I desperately look to find the easy answers.  Finally when I can't find a solution, I remember to turn to God. God always give answers although not necessarily in the ways that I prefer.  Most of the time the answer is not the Big Sweepstakes.

Why Pray

Why pray? -Because I want a relationship with God, just as God wants to have one with me.  Praying (talking) is just one aspect of developing a bond.  One of the ways I move from being an acquaintance to being a friend is telling God how my life is going.  I sometimes cry in anguish with

God. Other times I laughingly tell God of the wonderful things happening in my life. Although God knows all of these things, by sharing God and I are forming a connection that can survive through difficult times.

Why pray? -Because if I do not honestly speak to God, how can I be honest with myself? At my most hurt, I raged at God.  This candid reaction to pain allowed me to learn that painful experiences are not the fault of God.  AND God shares in my pain just as my earthly parents do.

Why pray? -Because I need to hear what God has to say to me.  Prayer is more than talking to God.  It also involves listening to what God want me to know and understand.  When I sit quietly and open my mind, God shares just as I have with God.

Hope

How do you find hope today?  What if every where you look for hope, all you see are obstacles?  How do others deal with oppression on a daily basis?  Hope is a often a difficult feeling to find, especially in our economically unstable world. 

As I begin my field education at Hope Community of Shalom, I am meeting people who are seeking the basic things in survival.  Hope to them means that they have food for the weekend and clothes that aren't ripped or too small.  It also means that their kids have a place to go where they aren't sitting in front of the TV or getting into trouble on the streets.  Hope means that grandparents have a place to meet with others who are raising grandchildren.  Hope means discovering that God loves people even when they feel like they are unloveable.

What has impressed me about Hope Community is the fact that it was created based on the desires and needs of the neighborhood in which it was founded.  People walk to the building to get groceries, eat a meal, shop for clothes, and worship God.

This past Sunday afternoon I worked in the food pantry, which is aptly named "Loaves and Fishes."  I worked with two men who are also patrons of Hope.  They came to receive services and decided to also give their time.  Others went to Fiesta Domingo, the Sunday evening meal, and helped clean up.  Some people come to Hope and receive goods and services without helping AND that is okay too! 

Hope can be given and can be received.  Hope can be witnessed and can be experienced.  Look for the Hope that is in our world and share it. 

Will the Rains Come?

After 10 months of no significant rainfall, Lubbock got a downpour last night. I was at the executive session of MCC Lubbock's Board of Directors meeting while it was going on. As we tried to conduct our meeting, we would often become distracted by the sounds of massive amounts of water hitting the doors, windows, and roof. Cracks of lightening brought shared grins.

Our spiritual lives can often be mirrored by the weather. At times I have felt dry and dusty like the drought that still affects Texas. I question if God is present and wonder why I'm not feeling that contact. When a dark, little cloud comes over my spiritual horizon, I remember that God is present in all things and that I am the one who moves away from God. I am reminded that "There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under the heavens..." (Ecc 3:1)

Then like last night, everywhere I turn I see evidence that God is working in my life. Sometimes I feel so refreshed by the impact of God that I want to run out in the streets dancing for joy, just as many of us wanted to go out in the rain. As God makes wonderful and exciting things happen in my life, I cannot hold back the grin.

I am called by God to remain faithful, to wait for the blessings that God will rain upon me. While I wait, I must continue to do God's will even when the sun feels too hot and the winds scour my skin. AND I must remember that God stands with me through it all.

Virtual Church

Walking around Sunshine Cathedral Second Life, I felt as though I was touring a physical world church. I like the idea that I can click on a study guide and get information about a book or Bible study that will be held there. I also like that I can click on a large video screen and watch a pastor's sermon from a physical church.

The question that springs to mind is: how is this virtual church different from a church's web page? The answer comes when the church service begins. Unlike on a web page, I actually heard the short sermon presented as it was going out to the rest of the attending avatars.

As I participated in the service, I was aware that others shared this encounter with me. The service was a different experience from when I toured the church on my own. I could follow the examples of the more experienced avatars and could add amen or other responses when I desired to do so. I could have also sat and never typed/uttered a word. After the service, some of the more regular attendees spoke to me. Again I was aware that I was not alone during this time.

As Douglas Estes said in SimChurch, some people who have social anxieties find a virtual church to be a safer place to socialize and develop relationships. I can certainly see the advantage when "virtual-world interactions can be far more authentic and far less awkward than real-world relationships...." (27) In addition to those with social anxieties, those people, who are not familiar with mainstream churches, "will prefer to worship in the virtual world because of the flexibility, transparency, diversity, and other innate strengths found in most virtual churches." (28)

The experience of virtual church felt like more than if I'd been on a web page. I felt like I had been somewhere. As someone who doesn't routinely function in the virtual world, I have to say I'm not sure where I've been. If someone who is comfortable moving about Second Life, I can certainly see the appeal of attending church with others who have similar interests.

Communion

The lights in the sanctuary dimmed in preparation of Communion. The pastor asked everyone to go to God in prayer. I sat silently thinking to myself, “Can I go to Communion? Is it sacrilegious to participate when I didn’t really believe? I need to feel another person’s touch. What am I supposed to do?”

I struggled with my thoughts as the head usher stepped beside my row. The usher had moved on to the next row before I could make my body move. As I stepped into the aisle, I felt like every person knew that I was a skeptic. I gasped for shallow breaths expecting at any moment that someone would tell me to sit down.

When my turn finally came, I went to the first server available. The woman gave me the elements, softly saying, “Receive the body and blood of Jesus.” Then she laid her hand on my shoulder and whispered a quiet blessing. Her gentle touch seemed to tell me that she welcomed me into fellowship with her.

That first Sunday I accepted communion (definitely with a small “c”) with the people of MCC Lubbock. As defined by the dictionary communion can be an “interchange or sharing of thoughts or emotions” and “the act of sharing, or holding in common.” Because I was able to step forward and begin a deeper relationship on that Sunday, I was later able to accept Communion with and from God. I had to learn that others were accessible to me before I could grasp God’s presence in my life.

Sharing the Faith

My class project on evangelism had not gone the way I expected. In fact it would be more accurate to say that I really didn't feel have a project. AND I was flying to Boston for my class where I was expected to have a project. At the airport I said a small prayer to God. I asked that I be given an opportunity to talk about faith with someone along my journey.

On the final leg of my flight, I turned off my Kindle when the flight attendant announced that all electronic devices had to be put away. The man next to me said, “So... how do you like your Kindle?” For a few minutes we talked about the merits of electronic readers as opposed to the traditional paper book. Our conversation continued from there.

Back and forth we asked questions of each other and expressed our experiences with work, life and eventually faith. Although my seatmate didn't categorize himself as Christian, he was concerned that his friends who were Christians didn't seem to do anything with their faith. He talked about how he was disappointed that they didn't feel the need to do any more than sit in a pew on Sunday. As we talked, I heard how he thought believing would bring more changes in their lives. Ultimately the man wondered what good was God if a person wasn't changed by the relationship.

Taking the opening he gave me, I described how lonely and isolated I had felt before I began cultivating my relationship with God. I shared my relief in knowing that I was not alone and that God understood everything that I felt. Although the man did not suddenly embrace God and Christ, we had a conversation that was an opportunity for both of us to share our stories.

At the end of the flight, I knew that I not only had a project, but also rejuvenated faith that God answers prayers. I learned that part of sharing faith is not trying to force the issue, like trying to make a project happen. But rather it is about having conversations with individuals.

Community Center?

Sarah Monroe in her blog, "Rural Renewal?", talks about the possibility that the rural church could fill the role of the community center, rather than trying to continue services "as they have for the last hundred years." She says, "The church could again assert that God is just as concerned with the body as God is with the soul."

As I consider Monroe's opinions, I look around Lubbock, a city of over 260,000 people, and question how Metropolitan Community Church (MCC) Lubbock can address the needs of the GLBT community. In many ways the GLBT community of Lubbock is like the rural communities in Monroe's blog. Many GLBT individuals feel isolated and as though the rest of Lubbock is not a place for them. In Lubbock, there are two regular places where GLBT people can meet each other, the bars or the MCC Lubbock.
They fear church as it was often the first place that said they did not belong and can't or won't find community at the bars.

Should MCC Lubbock's role become as Monroe suggests for rural churches? Can MCC Lubbock and MCCs throughout the world become places where others can find community and by doing so possibly find spiritual growth? Before we can begin helping people become disciples, we have to get them in the door.

Are you in the service industry?

What does it mean to be a follower of Christ? The answer seems to be presenting itself to me around every corner.

As I sit in the airport, I watch people who are in the service industry who are harried as they try to rearrange seats, clean up after spills, and pacify the angry traveler who arrived at the gate as the plane is taking off. If the airport personnel handle disagreements with patience and kindness, the patrons around them often come away with a better view of the airlines and the airport.

As I am writing these words a man splashed his coffee on me. He felt horrible, apologizing over and over. My response to this little accident makes the difference in how I present myself as a Christian. Do I react with anger and live up to the too-often seen Christian in word, but not in walk? Or do I come across as a true follower of Christ and say, "Don't worry about it. You didn't do it on purpose."

Each of us who consider ourselves to be followers of Christ are in fact in the service industry. We meet travelers when they are angry, lost, confused, and often seeking. Our job is to show others about God's grace and as we do this we become better servants for God. Are you ready to serve?

Flying Away

Sometimes the responsibilities get to be too much. How can I balance what I feel called to do spiritually when I am so tired AND busy? Recently I have divested myself of some of my responsibilities at church.

I have been struggling with this feeling of too much for quite a while. I was very engrossed in taking care of everyone else and stopped taking care of myself. Finally the realization that I was feeling angry and bitter about my "duties" helped me understand that I wasn't doing anyone any good by keeping these assignments on my plate. In fact I was probably hurting a great many people because I resented my obligations.

My friend, Theresa, put it all into perspective when she was talking about what she and her spouse, Charla, were doing for their church. She said that although they had a lot of pressure on them, they knew that what they were doing was what they were called to do. They were working on their ministry. As she told me this, I realized that what I was so desperately trying to hold onto was not in fact my calling or ministry. I was no longer fed by being Worship Ministry Leader or Coordinator. When I stopped being fed, I was no longer able to feed others.

Part of this awareness is necessary because as I grow in my calling from God, I also grow from my home church. As my school advisor and friend, Julie, explained to me, I am preparing to move away from this home to make a place elsewhere. I am an adolescent preparing to fly out of the nest and I am struggling with my independence and fears of leaving the security of my home.


Some part of me does not want to leave this place that has become my shelter and comfort. MCC Lubbock became my rock when I was floating in the abyss of depression and loneliness. I want to throw myself down on the ground, kicking and screaming as a two-year-old. "NO! NO! NO! I won't leave! I won't! You can't make me!" But another part of me is craving MORE and knows that this "MORE" is found elsewhere. I have to continue preparing myself for the eventual leave-taking that must occur. With the help of my loved ones, my family, I will continue to grow until my wings are strong enough to take me somewhere else. For what has been, for what is, and for what will be, thanks be to God!

Reconnection

Recently I've been reconnecting with friends who I haven't seen in many years. Facebook has been an amazing opportunity to find people who I knew from childhood. Sometimes when I send a message or a request to someone, I don't feel very sure of myself. Does this person want to have contact with me? Are we going to relate to each other as well as we did when we were younger? A lot of concerns and fears come when I think about reuniting with old friends.

I also felt this way when I reconnected with God. In a sense God was a friend with whom I had lost contact. I had walked away from God and didn't look back until my emotional life became such a mess that I was desparate. I had pretty much said, "God, you are of no use to me. I'm leaving." As a human I know how I would react to someone treating me that way. "If that's the way you feel, good riddance. I don't need you either."

When I approached God after my planned ignoring, I waited for the disdain and aloofness that would be expected from humans. I tried to sneak into church as a casual observer. First God wasn't going to allow me to sit on the sidelines. And second God didn't react as I expected. I was welcomed much as the prodigal son in the parable. God didn't lay any guilt on me for the way I had behaved or for my absence. I was welcomed with love and understanding.

I had never understood that God wasn't like us humans. God knows that I have faults and need to grow in many areas. Instead of holding it against me, God greets me with a hospitality that I have rarely extended to those who hurt me.

I have begun to realize when I am asked to be like God that this type of hospitality may be what is expected of me. Am I willing to put aside old hurts to see the changes in people or in myself? Do I keep my grudges close to my heart where they can never be healed? Or do I try to offer grace as Jesus did for us?

Oh Come, Oh Come

Last Sunday was Advent Sunday, the season of preparation and waiting for the Nativity of Jesus. I was responsible for lighting the altar candles.

When I was trained to perform this duty, Jean, then the worship coordinator, explained how I could remember which candle to light first. When facing the altar, the candle on the right represents Jesus and it is always lit first. AND when extinguishing the candles, I was to relight the candle lighter off of the Christ candle and then process out of the sanctuary. I would be symbolically carrying Jesus out into the world.

As I started down the aisle with the lit candle lighter, I listened to the congregation sing, "Oh Come, Oh Come, Emmanuel."

Oh, come, oh, come, Emmanuel,
And ransom captive Israel,
That mourns in lonely exile here
Until the Son of God appear.
Rejoice! Rejoice! Emmanuel
Shall come to you, O Israel!

I watched the flame as I walked. The words "the Son of God appear" struck a chord with me. Each time someone brings the flame in s/he is symbolically saying that God is present with us.

Do we have to wait for Christmas to feel like God is with us? All year long do we embrace the idea that God is with us? I'm not against Christmas. I think it can be a reminder that we are not alone and that God is with us. REJOICE! REJOICE!

Warning!!

I was driving back to Lubbock from the farm. When you live in the city, you forget how dark country roads can be. Ahead the only lights on the road were two sets of hazard lights flashing. Because I don't know what's ahead, I slowed down. I realized the parked vehicles might be sitting in the middle of the road. I slowed down even more as I approached the lights. As I was almost at the cars, something blocked the road. I quickly swerved around the black cow that straddled the yellow line. If I hadn't slowed down, I could have been killed.

How many times do we see warning lights from God? I hear that little voice in my head saying, "This isn't what you are supposed to be doing." I have to decide if I am going to listen to that voice or if I am going to preceed on a dangerous road. Often my own desires stifle the sirens that tell me what is good or not good for me. I make excuses to myself. "But I'm really lonely and God doesn't want me to be by myself." "If I work hard enough, I can make ... go the way it should." "I can change this person."

God has given each of us lights, bells, sirens that warn us when we are on a path that is destructive for us. God also gave us free will to decide whether we will follow God or our own desires. I pray that the next time I see hazard lights on my path, I slow down to decide if this is where I should go.

One More Try

In Hebrew Scriptures class (Old Testament), we have been just finishing Isaiah and Jeremiah. One thing I've noticed throughout the books that we've studied so far is that the Israelites were constantly screwing up and God was constantly giving them a second chance.

I sometimes beat myself up because I haven't been praying daily or because I was worried about money so I didn't pay my offering for the month. I feel like I have failed and think, "What's the use? I've already messed up. Why even try?" Sometimes I think I'm such a doofus that there is no way that God could still love me.

The lesson I'm learning from these old scriptures is that even in the olden (extremely olden) days God was willing to offer another chance. I always have another opportunity to follow God and the commandments that Jesus set forth. By commandments I'm speaking of "Love your neighbor as you love yourself and love God above all things."

The stewardship committee talks about how to keep stewardship in people's minds after finishing the drive. Referring back to God's recovenant with the Isrealites is one way we can help our congregants know that they can keep trying. Instead of giving up, each of us can try again. How else could we go to God's communion table?

MORE! again!?!

I've got a feeling that I'm supposed to be doing more. Like before I feel a dissatisfaction with the status quo. I'm struggling with feeling this huge jumpiness inside of me. When I sit in church, I know that we are not reaching people. Instead of trying to have a contemporary service we try to give a mixture of some praise music and some hymns.


God has put tremors on my heart that I need to start an alternative worship service. Can it be in/at MCC Lubbock? Our sanctuary feels so stale. Our fellowship hall is stark. I think this service could happen in our sanctuary. Should it be on Sunday night or Saturday afternoon (like Recovering the Promise)? Should it be Wednesday night? If Doorways, our young people's group, is going to only meet every other week, then we could have a service one Wednesday a month.

I can also envision a service at a coffee house. I can envision people noticing activity in the cafe and wandering in to see what's going on. I can also imagine people coming who wouldn't normally walk into a church. They wouldn't feel the pressure that they had to believe in anything to be welcomed in this service.

I believe that God has put these thoughts in my head because there are people in Lubbock who need MORE. So many GLBT people don't feel that they have a place at most churches in Lubbock. Probably many straight people have also experienced being on the outside.

What is going to happen? I don't know. I'm continuing to pray about what God wants from me and from MCC Lubbock.

The Dark Hole

For most of my life I was lost. I did not belong anywhere and felt unbearably out of place in the world. About eight years ago this feeling became even stronger as I began to explore my sexuality and in my isolation, I became severely depressed. My therapist encouraged me to develop a support system and suggested that I try Metropolitan Community Church (MCC) Lubbock.

I had qualms about going to a church because I did not consider myself a Christian and had no interest in becoming one. Although I had been raised by Christian parents who took me to Sunday school and church services, I did not understand God as a living being, but rather as stale stories told to keep me on the right side of obedience. My experience with “religious” people had me questioning what was factual. I heard about Jesus saying, “Love one another,” but I saw the people of my church not acting with love toward each other. I was told that God didn’t care what I wore or what I looked like, but I heard the leaders of my youth group complaining about the couple who came to church each week in the same dingy clothes. I saw the way none of the adults would talk to the African-American woman who came to a worship service. As I listened to the people around me, I perceived their actions and words to be those of God and I wasn’t impressed with the double standard I thought belonged to God.

To add to my childhood experiences, in college I lost a close friend. My friends before Chris were children of my parents’ friends or from my school. In contrast Chris was my first friend of choice and when she suffered a brain injury, she forgot me and our friendship. I could not understand why God would allow me to find this friend and then take her away from me. The culture of the private college I was attending kept saying that if I had enough faith, God would fix my problems. God didn’t and I didn’t feel like I was allowed to be angry at God. My disappointment added to my confusion about the double standard of God. Finally the only way that I could deal with my feelings was to stop believing that God existed or that God was of any use to me.

As an agnostic, I felt deep discomfort going to a church after more than a ten year absence. The first few times at MCC Lubbock I sat in the pew and did not sing, bow my head, or participate in any way. I could only sit and wait for these people to show me the same hateful, backstabbing God of my youth.

One Sunday, Rev. Renae preached about Elijah and how his experience on Mount Carmel left him feeling alone and lost. She said that even though Elijah felt alone, he was not because God was with him. Just as Elijah did not have to experience the ups and downs of life by himself, none of us had to be alone. We do not even have to ask because God is always there and shares our pain and loss with us.

At that moment I knew that God was actually giving me a message. Until this point, God was some callous being that floated in the clouds and had no link with me or my life. Suddenly I realized that even though I was in the deepest, darkest emotional hole, I was not alone and had never been alone. God had always been with me.

The climb out of my depression was time consuming and difficult. I believe that this moment was the turning point for me and it was all put into action by God. Several years after that first visit to MCC Lubbock, I began to understand how the Holy Spirit had put people in my life so that I could take that first step. God loved me and wanted what was best for me even when I had no clue that something bigger than me existed.

A part of my healing has been to realize that God, as my heavenly parent, loves me unconditionally. There is nothing I can do to make God love me more; and there is nothing I can do to make God stop loving me. Now that I have experienced unconditional love, I can allow others to love me and also extend love to them. I never really understood that my mom and dad loved me unconditionally until I was able to experience God’s love in this manner.

Forgiven

My Bible study group studied Phillip Yancy's book, What's So Amazing About Grace. Yancy told stories that expressed different ways people have shown grace to others as well as how God exhibits grace to us. Many of the accounts made a significant impact on me and my way of thinking. One in particular really helped me think about grace and forgiveness.

This story is of two missionaries who were working with a group of Polish Christians a few years after World War II. The missionaries told the Poles that a group of German Christians wanted to meet with them so that they could apologize for what their people did to Poland. One Pole fiercely declared that they could not possibly forgive the Germans or even be expected to do so. He said that every brick, every street of Warsaw was drenched with Polish blood. How could they ever forgive the ones who cause so much hurt?

To end the meeting the group said the Lord’s Prayer. When they got to “forgive us our debts as we have forgiven…,” the group stopped praying. The man who earlier had spoken so intensely said, “Of course we will meet with them. We must. God will only forgive us as much as we are willing to forgive others.” Over a year later the two groups met and formed a lasting friendship.

Whenever I read this story, I think about how God gave the ultimate gift to us by allowing Jesus to be crucified. God must have wanted to rant and rave against all humanity while watching his child die. Instead of reacting out of anger and disgust, God continues to offer us grace.

In John 12:44-45 (The Message) Jesus says:

Whoever believes in me, believes not just in me but in the One who sent me.
Whoever looks at me is looking, in fact, at the One who sent me. I am Light
that has come into the world so that all who believe in me won't have to
stay any longer in the dark.

Forgiveness freed the Poles from their pain and anger, just as it can free us. All we have to do is turn to God and let go of all these feelings.


*Image from http://www.letterrip.net

Filled with the Spirit

I was filling a glass with the last of the soda from a bottle. There was just a tiny bit left and I really wanted to fit it all into the glass. As it got closer and closer to the top, I was thinking, “Come on. Just a little bit more. I want it all now.” I suddenly had a thought of how overfilling a glass is how I sometimes feel about the Holy Spirit. What would happen if I as a person was being filled and I wanted it all?

In some ways I feel like I've been filled with all the wonderful things that God has given me. Is there more? What if I, like the glass, try to take more when I have already been filled? I realized that if I am filled and continue to accept more of God's grace and love, good things would overflow from me. Unlike a liquid when I overflow I don't make a mess. I actually share what I have in excess with the world.

I always have room for more understanding, more knowledge, more love, more God because when I have been filled I have extra to give. Much like warm fuzzies, hoarding what God has given me won't make all the blessings last longer. Hoarding will in fact make less of them and of me.